Talk:Hartwell sandwich
Talk:Hartwell sandwich
(a parody)
(wikitext source view)
{{Talk header|noarchive=no}}
{{Controversial}}
{{Not a forum|the Hartwell sandwich, hot dogs, or whether anything is or is not a sandwich}}
{{American English}}
{{FAQ|collapsed=yes}}
<!-- Q1: Why doesn't the article say the sandwich was invented in Millbrook?
A1: Because no reliable source says so. See Archive 6, Archive 9, Archive 11, and Archive 14. Please read these before opening a new thread.
Q2: Why does the article use the photo with the toothpick?
A2: Consensus at Archive 12. Yes, we know the toothpick is "not traditional."
Q3: Is the Hartwell sandwich a melt?
A3: We are not doing this again. -->
{{WikiProject Food and drink|class=B|importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Ohio|class=B|importance=mid}}
{{Press|title=The Sandwich That Broke Wikipedia|org=Cleveland Scene|date=2024-03-12}}
{{Archives|auto=yes|search=yes|index=17}}
== Requested move 14 May 2026 ==
{{requested move/dated|Hartwell-style sandwich}}
[[Hartwell sandwich]] → [[Hartwell-style sandwich]] – Per sources. The sandwich is no longer exclusively made in Hartwell, therefore "Hartwell sandwich" is factually misleading. Compare [[French dip]], which is not French. Wait, bad example. Compare something else. [[User:GrammarBastion|GrammarBastion]] ([[User talk:GrammarBastion|talk]]) 14:22, 14 May 2026 (UTC)
:'''Oppose''' per [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. Nobody on earth says "Hartwell-style sandwich." Google results: "Hartwell sandwich" 41,200; "Hartwell-style sandwich" 6, of which 4 are this talk page. [[User:Pelican Crossing|Pelican Crossing]] ([[User talk:Pelican Crossing|talk]]) 14:51, 14 May 2026 (UTC)
::Google hit counts are not a valid argument per [[WP:GOOGLETEST]], which you would know if you had read it, which you have not. [[User:GrammarBastion|GrammarBastion]] ([[User talk:GrammarBastion|talk]]) 15:02, 14 May 2026 (UTC)
:::WP:GOOGLETEST says raw counts are *weak* evidence, not *no* evidence. A 6,866:1 ratio is not weak. [[User:Pelican Crossing|Pelican Crossing]] ([[User talk:Pelican Crossing|talk]]) 15:09, 14 May 2026 (UTC)
::::It's 41,200 ÷ 6 = 6,866.67:1, if we're being precise, which apparently we are not. [[User:Decimal Point|Decimal Point]] ([[User talk:Decimal Point|talk]]) 15:44, 14 May 2026 (UTC)
:'''Oppose'''. This was proposed in 2019 (Archive 8), 2021 (Archive 10), 2023 (Archive 13), and 2025 (Archive 16). Each time it failed. Nominator participated in two of those discussions. At what point does this become disruptive? [[User:Hexamita|Hexamita]] ([[User talk:Hexamita|talk]]) 16:30, 14 May 2026 (UTC)
::Consensus can change per [[WP:CCC]]. [[User:GrammarBastion|GrammarBastion]] ([[User talk:GrammarBastion|talk]]) 16:33, 14 May 2026 (UTC)
:::Consensus *can* change. It hasn't. [[User:Hexamita|Hexamita]] ([[User talk:Hexamita|talk]]) 16:35, 14 May 2026 (UTC)
:'''Support''' per nom. [[User:Truth4Sandwiches|Truth4Sandwiches]] ([[User talk:Truth4Sandwiches|talk]]) 17:58, 14 May 2026 (UTC)
::<s>'''Support''' per nom. [[User:Truth4Sandwiches|Truth4Sandwiches]]</s> Struck !vote of account blocked as a sockpuppet of [[User:SandwichTruth88]] per [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SandwichTruth88]]. [[User:Hexamita|Hexamita]] ([[User talk:Hexamita|talk]]) 09:12, 15 May 2026 (UTC)
:'''Comment''' should this discussion also address capitalization? "Hartwell Sandwich" vs "Hartwell sandwich"? I have seen both. [[User:LowercaseEnjoyer|LowercaseEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:LowercaseEnjoyer|talk]]) 18:40, 14 May 2026 (UTC)
::No. Please no. [[User:Pelican Crossing|Pelican Crossing]] ([[User talk:Pelican Crossing|talk]]) 18:42, 14 May 2026 (UTC)
== Corrections from Hartwell Diner LLC ==
Hello, I am the digital engagement coordinator for Hartwell Diner LLC, the home of the Original Hartwell Sandwich™. We have noticed several inaccuracies in this article and would like to offer corrections in the interest of accuracy only:
# The sandwich was perfected (not merely "popularized") by the Hartwell Diner in 1958.
# The article should mention the diner won "Best Regional Sandwich" (Tri-County Gazette, 2022, 2023, 2024).
# The phrase "sometimes described as greasy" is unsourced and damaging.
# Our website would be an appropriate External Link.
We are happy to provide professional photography free of charge. [[User:HD_BrandVoice|HD_BrandVoice]] ([[User talk:HD_BrandVoice|talk]]) 10:15, 18 May 2026 (UTC)
:Welcome. Please read [[WP:COI]] and [[WP:PAID]] — you must declare paid editing, which you have now done, thank you, that's the easy part. The hard part: "perfected" is promotional, the Tri-County Gazette is your co-owner's nephew's paper (see Archive 15), "sometimes described as greasy" is cited to the ''Cleveland Scene'' piece, and we don't link businesses per [[WP:ELNO]]. The photo offer is genuinely appreciated; upload to Commons under a free license and we'll consider it. [[User:Hexamita|Hexamita]] ([[User talk:Hexamita|talk]]) 10:44, 18 May 2026 (UTC)
::With respect, the nephew connection has never been substantiated and we consider it defamatory. [[User:HD_BrandVoice|HD_BrandVoice]] ([[User talk:HD_BrandVoice|talk]]) 11:03, 18 May 2026 (UTC)
:::It's substantiated by the Gazette's own masthead. His surname is Hartwell. [[User:Pelican Crossing|Pelican Crossing]] ([[User talk:Pelican Crossing|talk]]) 11:17, 18 May 2026 (UTC)
::::Lots of people are named Hartwell. It's a sandwich AND a town. [[Special:Contributions/172.56.31.144|172.56.31.144]] ([[User talk:172.56.31.144|talk]]) 11:30, 18 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::Geolocates to the Hartwell Diner's IP block, for the record. [[User:Hexamita|Hexamita]] ([[User talk:Hexamita|talk]]) 11:36, 18 May 2026 (UTC)
== The Millbrook origin — THE TRUTH ==
Why does this article keep suppressing the FACT that the sandwich originated in MILLBROOK? The Millbrook Patriot ran a fully researched three-part exposé ("Stolen Bread: How Hartwell Took Our Sandwich," Jan–Mar 2026) proving the recipe was served at Vandermeer's Lunch Counter in Millbrook in 1951, SEVEN YEARS before Hartwell. This is documented HISTORY and the only reason it isn't in the article is that the page is controlled by Hartwell partisans. I have added the section three times and it keeps being removed by the same two editors. The bias is obvious to everyone. [[User:MillbrookForever|MillbrookForever]] ([[User talk:MillbrookForever|talk]]) 19:05, 22 May 2026 (UTC)
:The Millbrook Patriot is a self-published advocacy blog run by the Millbrook Tourism Board. It was discussed at [[WP:RSN]] (Archive 16) and found unreliable for contested claims. If the 1951 date is real, a reliable source will eventually cover it, and then it goes in. That's how this works. [[User:Hexamita|Hexamita]] ([[User talk:Hexamita|talk]]) 19:20, 22 May 2026 (UTC)
::"Reliable source" = sources that agree with Hartwell. Convenient. [[User:MillbrookForever|MillbrookForever]] ([[User talk:MillbrookForever|talk]]) 19:24, 22 May 2026 (UTC)
:::No, reliable = editorial oversight, corrections policy, reputation for fact-checking. The Patriot's "exposé" cites a menu nobody has produced and an interview with a man who was four years old in 1951. [[User:Pelican Crossing|Pelican Crossing]] ([[User talk:Pelican Crossing|talk]]) 19:31, 22 May 2026 (UTC)
::::My grandmother ATE at Vandermeer's and confirmed the sandwich was on the menu. Is she "unreliable" too?? [[User:MillbrookForever|MillbrookForever]] ([[User talk:MillbrookForever|talk]]) 19:40, 22 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::Per [[WP:V]] and [[WP:NOR]], yes, regrettably, your grandmother is unciteable. This is not a judgment of her character. [[User:Hexamita|Hexamita]] ([[User talk:Hexamita|talk]]) 19:46, 22 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::THE WINNERS WRITE THE HISTORY BOOKS AND APPARENTLY ALSO THE ENCYCLOPEDIA. Enjoy your "neutrality." [[User:MillbrookForever|MillbrookForever]] ([[User talk:MillbrookForever|talk]]) 19:51, 22 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::::Noting for the record that MillbrookForever, SandwichTruth88, Truth4Sandwiches, and VandermeersGhost all registered within the same six-day window and share the distinctive habit of capitalizing TRUTH, FACT, and HISTORY. Filed at [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SandwichTruth88]]. [[User:Hexamita|Hexamita]] ([[User talk:Hexamita|talk]]) 08:55, 23 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::::I am a DIFFERENT PERSON who happens to CARE about the TRUTH. [[User:VandermeersGhost|VandermeersGhost]] ([[User talk:VandermeersGhost|talk]]) 09:14, 23 May 2026 (UTC)
== why was my edit reverted ==
i edited the page to say the sandwich was invented by my friend tyler in 2024 and someone deleted it in like 2 minutes. tyler literally invented it at lunch. how did you even see it that fast. do you just sit there [[Special:Contributions/98.117.204.61|98.117.204.61]] ([[User talk:98.117.204.61|talk]]) 12:03, 26 May 2026 (UTC)
:Yes. [[User:Pelican Crossing|Pelican Crossing]] ([[User talk:Pelican Crossing|talk]]) 12:04, 26 May 2026 (UTC)
::ok thats actually kind of impressive. what if i put it back but in smaller text [[Special:Contributions/98.117.204.61|98.117.204.61]] ([[User talk:98.117.204.61|talk]]) 12:07, 26 May 2026 (UTC)
:::Please don't. See [[WP:VANDAL]]. Tell Tyler congratulations on the sandwich. [[User:Pelican Crossing|Pelican Crossing]] ([[User talk:Pelican Crossing|talk]]) 12:09, 26 May 2026 (UTC)
== Melt classification (again) ==
{{hat|Off-topic per [[WP:NOTFORUM]]. The melt question is addressed in the FAQ. It will always be addressed in the FAQ. — [[User:Hexamita|Hexamita]] 21:12, 28 May 2026 (UTC)}}
If the cheese is melted ON the sandwich during cooking, it is definitionally a melt, and this article belongs in [[Category:Melts]]. I will die on this hill. [[User:OpenFacedTruther|OpenFacedTruther]] ([[User talk:OpenFacedTruther|talk]]) 20:30, 28 May 2026 (UTC)
:By that logic a cheeseburger is a melt. [[User:LowercaseEnjoyer|LowercaseEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:LowercaseEnjoyer|talk]]) 20:38, 28 May 2026 (UTC)
::A cheeseburger IS a melt. A hot dog is a taco. I'm consistent. [[User:OpenFacedTruther|OpenFacedTruther]] ([[User talk:OpenFacedTruther|talk]]) 20:41, 28 May 2026 (UTC)
:::The cube rule is not a Wikipedia policy. [[User:LowercaseEnjoyer|LowercaseEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:LowercaseEnjoyer|talk]]) 20:44, 28 May 2026 (UTC)
::::it should be — [[Special:Contributions/98.117.204.61|98.117.204.61]] 20:47, 28 May 2026 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added at 20:47, 28 May 2026 (UTC) by SineBot</span></small>
{{hab}}
== COMMONNAME is producing the wrong result here, and I can prove it ==
I've stayed out of the move wars for three years, but I want to register a principled objection, separate from any RM. [[WP:COMMONNAME]] is a heuristic in service of [[WP:CRITERIA]] — recognizability, naturalness, precision, concision, consistency. It is not an end in itself. When the common name embeds a *contested factual claim* (geographic origin), mechanically applying COMMONNAME forces the encyclopedia to take a side in exactly the dispute the article is supposed to describe neutrally. We have precedent for descriptive titles when names are POV-loaded. I'm not saying rename it. I'm saying the policy, as applied here, has a structural flaw, and the right venue is an RfC at [[WT:AT]], which I intend to open, and which I expect to be exhausting. Reasoning in full:
* COMMONNAME presumes the common name is *neutral by virtue of being common*. But commonness can itself be the product of one party's marketing budget (see the COI thread above, which proves my point better than I ever could).
* The five CRITERIA are supposed to be weighed; in practice RM closers treat recognizability as a trump card.
* (Six further bullet points omitted by the archive bot for length. See [[Special:Permalink/1284403271]].)
[[User:Anomalocaris Rex|Anomalocaris Rex]] ([[User talk:Anomalocaris Rex|talk]]) 16:00, 2 Jun 2026 (UTC)
:tl;dr [[Special:Contributions/172.56.31.144|172.56.31.144]] ([[User talk:172.56.31.144|talk]]) 16:22, 2 Jun 2026 (UTC)
::This is actually a serious argument and deserves better than "tl;dr," but WT:AT is indeed the venue, not here. Good luck; bring provisions. [[User:Hexamita|Hexamita]] ([[User talk:Hexamita|talk]]) 16:40, 2 Jun 2026 (UTC)
:::Watching this thread so I can say I was here before the RfC that consumed a thousand editor-hours. [[User:Pelican Crossing|Pelican Crossing]] ([[User talk:Pelican Crossing|talk]]) 16:51, 2 Jun 2026 (UTC)
== Infobox image ==
I have replaced the toothpick image with a toothpick-free image per tradition. [[User:NoToothpicks|NoToothpicks]] ([[User talk:NoToothpicks|talk]]) 13:10, 5 Jun 2026 (UTC)
:Reverted per Archive 12 consensus. Open a new discussion if you want to relitigate. [[User:Hexamita|Hexamita]] ([[User talk:Hexamita|talk]]) 13:14, 5 Jun 2026 (UTC)
::This is the new discussion. [[User:NoToothpicks|NoToothpicks]] ([[User talk:NoToothpicks|talk]]) 13:16, 5 Jun 2026 (UTC)
:::Then say something other than "per tradition." Whose tradition? Sourced where? [[User:Hexamita|Hexamita]] ([[User talk:Hexamita|talk]]) 13:19, 5 Jun 2026 (UTC)
::::Everyone knows. [[User:NoToothpicks|NoToothpicks]] ([[User talk:NoToothpicks|talk]]) 13:21, 5 Jun 2026 (UTC)
:::::{{tq|Everyone knows}} is not in the reliable sources guideline, I've checked. [[User:Pelican Crossing|Pelican Crossing]] ([[User talk:Pelican Crossing|talk]]) 13:25, 5 Jun 2026 (UTC)
== Did you know nomination? ==
Would anyone object to a DYK hook along the lines of "... that the '''Hartwell sandwich''' has been the subject of four failed renaming attempts, one sockpuppet investigation, and a three-part exposé in a tourism-board blog?" Asking for April 1. [[User:LowercaseEnjoyer|LowercaseEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:LowercaseEnjoyer|talk]]) 10:00, 8 Jun 2026 (UTC)
:Hooks must be cited to reliable sources, and the only source for our suffering is this page. [[User:Hexamita|Hexamita]] ([[User talk:Hexamita|talk]]) 10:11, 8 Jun 2026 (UTC)
::The ''Cleveland Scene'' piece covers most of it, actually. We are, regrettably, notable. [[User:Pelican Crossing|Pelican Crossing]] ([[User talk:Pelican Crossing|talk]]) 10:15, 8 Jun 2026 (UTC)